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 Post subject: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:15 pm 
Master coachbuilder
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The classic car auctions world is really important in these years also for coachbuild.
A lot of CB cars are sold at stunning prices by RM, Gooding and all those big auctions company. I think it's interesting to look at those sales to discover the importance of coachbuild for collectors.
So, let's follow what happen in this world...
What are the favourite CB cars for auctions public?
And how much they want to pay for them?
MPC

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Let's start with a little review of the last auctions...
At RM Automobiles of Arizona (january 2011) the sale was dominate by a Touring Ferrari 166MM, sn0024M, with 1,870,000$, and the second higher price was for a pre-war 1933 Packard by Dietrich (1,760,000$). Another Touring Ferrari (1950 166 Inter berlinetta sn0043S) was sold for a "lower" price of 412,500$.
Other pre-war were a 1929 Derham Duesenberg J (1,237,500$), a 1939 Letourneur & Marchand Bugatti 57C (sn57809, 913,000$) and a 1927 Vanden Plas Bentley 3-Litre Sports Four-Seater (snBL1620, 346,500$).


Attachments:
1949 Ferrari 166 MM Barchetta 0024M.jpg
1949 Ferrari 166 MM Barchetta 0024M.jpg [ 353.68 KiB | Viewed 1173 times ]
1933 Packard Twelve Model 1006 Dietrich Sport Phaeton.jpg
1933 Packard Twelve Model 1006 Dietrich Sport Phaeton.jpg [ 366.83 KiB | Viewed 1173 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:41 pm 
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The Gooding Scottsdale auction (january 2011) see, against a lot of modern cars, another Duesenberg J, 1930 LeBaron Dual Cowl Phaeton snJ243, sold for 1,485,000$, and a 1953 Ghia Fiat 8V Supersonic sold for 1,705,000$.


Attachments:
1930 Duesenberg LeBaron Dual Cowl Phaeton J243.jpg
1930 Duesenberg LeBaron Dual Cowl Phaeton J243.jpg [ 316.76 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
1954 Fiat 8V.jpg
1954 Fiat 8V.jpg [ 315.86 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:10 pm 
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While at Mecum Kissimmee (january 2011) the auction was dominate by american muscle cars, without important coachbuilds, at Grand Palais by Bonhams (february 2011) there were a lot of coachbuilds. Four Bugatti held the first places, with a works 1933 Type 51 whit the highest price of 943,000€, and three coachbuild: 1930 Veth&Zoon Type 46 Faux cabriolet (sn46293 - 632,500€), 1933 VanRijswijk Type 49 Drophead coupé (sn49570 - 356,500€) and 1930 Figoni Type 46 cabriolet (sn46331 - 333,500€).
Two "normal" Alfa Romeo 1900C Sprint by Touring were sold for 135,700€ (sn0894) and 87,400€ (sn1998) and the special PininFarina Cadillac 'Jacqueline' Coupé (1961) found a new owner for 212,750€.


Attachments:
1930 Bugatti Type 46 Veth & Zoon Faux Cabriolet 46293.jpg
1930 Bugatti Type 46 Veth & Zoon Faux Cabriolet 46293.jpg [ 266.8 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
1933 Bugatti Type 49 Van Rijswijk Drophead Coupé 49570.jpg
1933 Bugatti Type 49 Van Rijswijk Drophead Coupé 49570.jpg [ 283.15 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
1930 Bugatti Type 46 Figoni Cabriolet 46331.jpg
1930 Bugatti Type 46 Figoni Cabriolet 46331.jpg [ 317.98 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
1961 Cadillac PininFarina 'Jacqueline' Coupé.jpg
1961 Cadillac PininFarina 'Jacqueline' Coupé.jpg [ 278.23 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:31 pm 
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At Retromobile, Artcurial sold for 279,128€ a 1938 Peugeot 402 Darl'mat ‘Special Sport’ (sn400210), in a wonderful blue sport version, but the other coachbuild didn't reach higher price: 183,628€ for a VanVooren Hispano-Suiza K6 (1934) and 153,322€ for a Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II (1930).
The collection of "president" cars saw a 1960 Chapron Simca cabriolet sold for 117,940€ but the other cars were in bad conditions, and a 1968 LeBaron Chrysler Imperial reach only 4,718€, maybe a good chance for coachbuild fans...


Attachments:
1938 Peugeot 402 Darl'mat ‘Special Sport’ 400210.jpg
1938 Peugeot 402 Darl'mat ‘Special Sport’ 400210.jpg [ 423.18 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
1930 Rolls-Royce Phantom II Continental Gurney Nutting Sedanca Cabriolet 40GX.jpg
1930 Rolls-Royce Phantom II Continental Gurney Nutting Sedanca Cabriolet 40GX.jpg [ 317.32 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
1960 Simca Presidence V8 Cabriolet Chapron.jpg
1960 Simca Presidence V8 Cabriolet Chapron.jpg [ 367.11 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
1968 Chrysler Imperial LeBaron Type DY3.jpg
1968 Chrysler Imperial LeBaron Type DY3.jpg [ 301.47 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:51 pm 
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I'm sorry, but I have my little doubts with the Auction Companys and their Sales Information. :oops:

This Mercedes, not CB, was sold in January for a worldrecord Price. Fine, but the 'new' Owner put it right away to another Restoration/Transformation and it's now offered again, by the same Company for the Monterey Auction, without Reserve.????
How could be someone so stupid???
He paid 1.250.000USD, plus Commission, 'restored' the Car and is now willing to sell it without reserve und paying for his secure loss another 10% Commission?

In the real world, it's very hard to sell a Gullwing for more than 500000USD.


Attachments:
1955-Mercedes Benz 300 SL #198.040-55-00601 (3).jpg
1955-Mercedes Benz 300 SL #198.040-55-00601 (3).jpg [ 77.86 KiB | Viewed 1171 times ]
1955-Mercedes Benz 300 SL #198.040-55-00601.jpg
1955-Mercedes Benz 300 SL #198.040-55-00601.jpg [ 125.47 KiB | Viewed 1171 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:56 pm 
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JoergD wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have my little doubts with the Auction Companys and their Sales Information. :oops:

This Mercedes, not CB, was sold in January for a worldrecord Price. Fine, but the 'new' Owner put it right away to another Restoration/Transformation and it's now offered again, by the same Company for the Monterey Auction, without Reserve.????
How could be someone so stupid???
He paid 1.250.000USD, plus Commission, 'restored' the Car and is now willing to sell it without reserve und paying for his secure loss another 10% Commission?

In the real world, it's very hard to sell a Gullwing for more than 500000USD.

I agree that this is really strange :?
But what do you think?? Why they do that???
MPC

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:59 pm 
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I go on with my review with RM Amelia Island. Two similar Vignale Ferrari reach two very different prices: the 1952 340 Mexico sn0224AT, in wonderful condition was sold for 4,290,000$, while the 1953 212 Inter sn0267EU, in need of a good restoration reach only 660,000$, in fact not a bad price at all...
The Duesenberg Model J seems to be one of the most wanted cars in this period: three J were sold by RM with very good prices. 1930 Murphy Convertible Coupé (snJ331) for 962,500$ and 1933 Rollston Torpedo Victoria (snJ384) for $979,000 (the third was a works Dual Cowl).
Another Darl'mat Peugeot 402, a 1938 Légère "Special Sport" Roadster was sold for 522,500$, but an higher price was paid for a Zagato Alfa Romeo 6C 1750 GS Spider (sn8513064): 990,000$.
Only 110,000$ were paid for a 1929 Hibbard&Darrin RR Phantom II and for a 1930 AllWeather Packard Super Eight.


Attachments:
1952 Ferrari 340 Mexico Coupe 0224AT.jpg
1952 Ferrari 340 Mexico Coupe 0224AT.jpg [ 195.37 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]
1953 Ferrari 212 Inter Coupe 0267EU.jpg
1953 Ferrari 212 Inter Coupe 0267EU.jpg [ 256.82 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]
1930 Duesenberg Model J Murphy Convertible Coupe J331.jpg
1930 Duesenberg Model J Murphy Convertible Coupe J331.jpg [ 294.82 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]
1933 Duesenberg Model J Rollston Torpedo Victoria J384.jpg
1933 Duesenberg Model J Rollston Torpedo Victoria J384.jpg [ 296.85 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]
1938 Peugeot 402 Darl'mat Légère Special Sport Roadster.jpg
1938 Peugeot 402 Darl'mat Légère Special Sport Roadster.jpg [ 188.62 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]
1930 Alfa Romeo 6C 1750 GS Spider 8513064.jpg
1930 Alfa Romeo 6C 1750 GS Spider 8513064.jpg [ 255.59 KiB | Viewed 1168 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:04 pm 
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JoergD wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have my little doubts with the Auction Companys and their Sales Information. :oops:

This Mercedes, not CB, was sold in January for a worldrecord Price. Fine, but the 'new' Owner put it right away to another Restoration/Transformation and it's now offered again, by the same Company for the Monterey Auction, without Reserve.????
How could be someone so stupid???
He paid 1.250.000USD, plus Commission, 'restored' the Car and is now willing to sell it without reserve und paying for his secure loss another 10% Commission?

In the real world, it's very hard to sell a Gullwing for more than 500000USD.

I had similar doubt when this Touring 6C 2500 was sold two times by Coys:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1859&p=14931&sid=2bf98720b89e19f28ecf5ddc1adc6934#p14931
MPC

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:06 pm 
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Now a highly valued CB Car.

This Delahaye, with Figoni 'Teardrop' Body was sold by an Auction Company in 2006, for 1.550.000USD, plus premium and Taxes.
Than it was sent to France, for a perfect Restoration by the Expert, did the whole 'Tour', including Press, Retromobile, Techno Classica, etc.
It failed to reach it's low Estimate at Villa d'Este. Highbid was 830.000Euros.
Including approx. Everything, the owner was willing to loose 2. Million Dollars. :?


Attachments:
1938-Delahaye 135 #60.112 MS Figoni Coupe.JPG
1938-Delahaye 135 #60.112 MS Figoni Coupe.JPG [ 117.75 KiB | Viewed 1166 times ]
1938-Delahaye 135 #60.112 MS Figoni Coupe (34).JPG
1938-Delahaye 135 #60.112 MS Figoni Coupe (34).JPG [ 119.8 KiB | Viewed 1166 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:15 pm 
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I think, it's only a game, to create Desire and to push prices.
Many investors are confused and willing to spend money, where the think, there is a big margain.
On the other Hand, many renowned Collectors are getting old, their Heirs prefer the money and not the Cars. In many of this Deals are allways the same names involved.
Sam Mann is starting to sell, same with Lorenzo Zambrano, Arturo Keller is getting old...


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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:22 pm 
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JoergD wrote:
I think, it's only a game, to create Desire and to push prices.

Surely the prices seen at the auctions are something terrible. It's a bad business world and the prices are so high only because a few people can pay a lot of money. They buy a car they know it's famous and important, and they don't look at the price at all. But what is the criterion to choose a car?? The price of it (or a similar one) at the previews auctions...
In this way some car's price swell more and a Ferrari California costs more then 10 milions $ while a rarer and older (and more beautiful...) 166MM reach only 2 milions.
It's only a game, you're right, a game for rich people, but could be interesting, in my opinion, to see how does it works: what are the more request cars, and what cars are ignored.
For me the California that costs 5 times more then the 166 it's something incredible, but obviously someone think different!
MPC

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:38 pm 
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While RM sold sn0267EU, Gooding at Amelia Island sold another Vignale Ferrar 212, a 1951 cabriolet (sn0106E), for 1,870,000$ (but in perfect conditions).
A 1953 Siata 208CS berlinetta was sold for 605,000$, but for a similar price (600,000$) the 1926 Motor Bodies Bentley 6½ Litre coupe snWT2271 didn't reach the minimum request. Not sold was also a 1935 LeBaron Lincoln Model K convertible roadster (snK3722)
Really high the price paid for two rather common Bertone Alfa Giuliettas. A 1961 Sprint Speciale reach 154,000$ and a 1959 Sprint 99,000$.
Of the two Gurney Nutting presented at the auction, the 1925 Bentley 3-Litre Tourer was sold for 236,500$, while the 1933 RR Phantom II Sedanca Coupé (sn32PY) wasn't.


Attachments:
1951 Ferrari 212 Export Vignale Cabriolet 0106E.jpg
1951 Ferrari 212 Export Vignale Cabriolet 0106E.jpg [ 307.53 KiB | Viewed 1146 times ]
1953 Siata 208 CS Berlinetta CS073.jpg
1953 Siata 208 CS Berlinetta CS073.jpg [ 310.61 KiB | Viewed 1146 times ]
1926 Bentley 6½ Litre Motor Bodies Coupe WT2271.jpg
1926 Bentley 6½ Litre Motor Bodies Coupe WT2271.jpg [ 303 KiB | Viewed 1146 times ]
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Speciale.jpg
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Speciale.jpg [ 311.47 KiB | Viewed 1146 times ]
1925 Bentley 3 Litre Gurney Nutting Tourer 930.jpg
1925 Bentley 3 Litre Gurney Nutting Tourer 930.jpg [ 340.53 KiB | Viewed 1146 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:29 pm 
Craftsman
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Are the prices so high?
You have to think, that every big dealer, or Auction House has at least one Person, who is able, mostly with 'easy Money', to finance this. I remember some years ago, the owner of the Swiss Oldtimer Garage, owned personally more than 300 Ferraris, plus 200 other Exotic Cars. He bought most of them, when they where cheap and where ever the prices might go, he will not loose money. He send his Cars around the Globe, to sell, sometimes you'll see them in the US, then in Germany, then in France, GB, etc.
There are at least two Guys in Germany, who did the same, you'll find them in the Netherlands and so on.
The mentioned California Spider, do you realy think, that this Guy, who earns money with foolish behaviour, actually bought this Car for this money and sells it some Month later for far less, not even mentioned in the press? For his Image, it was good, for the market it was a big sensation and pushed the prices further up, but were are they now for Californias?
Same with this omni present Guy from Ferrarichat, who tries to make his Piper Recreation real, he is a Billionaire and wants to buy a GTO for more than 20 Years, but never did and never will do. Why? He has the money, there are Cars in the market....
With all that easy money he and many others have, there would be no exeptional Car in the market, the are only looking for sheeps.


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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:40 am 
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I should think it's a big fake???
Nothing is real??
Aren't you a little bit exaggerating?
MPC

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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:44 pm 
Craftsman
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To typical Examples, first Car appeard at Goodwood this year and it's now for sale by a dealer in Britain, for 95000 Euros. Described as pre war Car from 1937.
Second Car is for sale in the southern France, for 25000 Euros, a Friend called and they told him, it's sold, but he can see it, at the next Retromobile.


Attachments:
1948-Delage D6 3-litres #880.150L Guillore Coach (1).jpg
1948-Delage D6 3-litres #880.150L Guillore Coach (1).jpg [ 110.11 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
1948-Delage D6 3-litres Guillore Berline.jpg
1948-Delage D6 3-litres Guillore Berline.jpg [ 54.64 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:48 pm 
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This Car was for sale a long time in the US, didn't sale, then it spent more then a year in Britain, was offered everywhere, didn't sale, now its sold at Villa d'este, below Estimate.
I bet that it's still with the same owner.


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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Forgot the picture =)


Attachments:
1955-Ferrari 375 MM #0490 AM PF Berlinetta Speciale (75).jpg
1955-Ferrari 375 MM #0490 AM PF Berlinetta Speciale (75).jpg [ 22.07 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:57 pm 
Craftsman
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I can't remember, how many times I saw this exeptional Car for sale in the last couple of years, in the US, in Britain, in France, in Germany, now sold below Estimate.


Attachments:
1938-Talbot Lago T 23 #930.64 FF 'Jeancart' (41).jpg
1938-Talbot Lago T 23 #930.64 FF 'Jeancart' (41).jpg [ 319.89 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
1938-Talbot Lago T 23 #930.64 FF 'Jeancart'.JPG
1938-Talbot Lago T 23 #930.64 FF 'Jeancart'.JPG [ 124.79 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Auctions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:12 pm 
Craftsman
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It's not all fake, but in many cases, of the high price Cars, cause on them it depends, the prices for 'normal' classic cars, are going up, or down. The money you'll loose with a top Car, you can earn with the sale of hundreds of 'small' Cars.
Of Course, there are arangments too, like in the Art Collectors world, if you buy a Car for a certain amount of money, then you get the garanty, that the Car will be sold in two years more, with a 10% Margain, that brings new money to the Dealers.


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